When Babe.net recently published its account of a young woman’s sexual encounter with Aziz Ansari, it provoked a new level of complexity in the conversation around sexual harassment, abuse, misconduct, and violence. On the one hand, critics decried that the #MeToo movement had gone too far, blurring the lines between aggressive sexual behavior and sexual assault; on the other hand, supporters believed that it was high time to expose and condemn such behavior. As we shared opinions among the 11&more community, no definitive conclusions were drawn. Instead, we found value in teasing out the shades of grey and keeping the ambiguity at the forefront of our minds.

Should she have spoken up more? If so, how?

Tania: I just don’t know how to process this Aziz Ansari story. It seems that the woman wanted more than a one night stand. She didn’t exactly leave though she said she was having such a bad time, and now she is humiliating him in a very public way. Caitlin Falanagan’s analysis in the Atlantic is pretty interesting too

Jia Jia: I think Flanagan has a point when she contrasts how modern young women have difficulty saying no against her own generation where, ironically, the only thing they were firmly instructed to do was to say no.

I feel that the exercise of sexual freedom needs to come with an understanding of sexual risk—understand that you are your own person with your own agenda and that the other person is the same.

Going into a date situation, I think the most you can expect is that there will be sexual interest (because otherwise, why go on a date) and that the other person shouldn’t have malicious intent. Absence of malicious intent doesn’t necessarily mean that you’ll take care of each other chivalrously every step of the way. You are after all two consenting adults who each want some kind of intimacy / sex / attention from the other and are figuring out the right way to get it. Ideally, you both synch to the same intent at the same time. But often, people suck at communication and the date’s unsatisfactory for both. That seems to be the situation here and is also the scenario described in Cat Person (Click here to read 11&more’s discussion of Cat Person ). Sure, there’s an age difference but when you’re in your twenties and you initiate an encounter, I think you’ve got be prepared to know your own mind and do some work to let the other person know how you’re feeling.

My broader concern is that as the conversation keeps building, we’re blurring the lines between monstrous behavior like Harvey Weinstein’s and bad dates. That means that people get disproportionately punished—which is no better than letting off someone like Weinstein lightly. Sooner or later, we’re going have a backlash against the progress.

Sneha:

“Throughout the course of her short time in the apartment, she says she used verbal and non-verbal cues to indicate how uncomfortable and distressed she was”.

I think we need to be careful not to confuse relenting with consenting. All the articles on Anzari I have read (apart from the Atlantic one, which in my view is deeply problematic) report on the fact that Grace indicated discomfort in a variety of forms a variety of times. What are women supposed to do—scream? Say no loudly and clearly (is there an “acceptable” way to say no)? There is a lot of literature on why women don’t do this—fear of (mostly physical) retaliation being one, women are conditioned to want to “keep the peace.” As to why she didn’t leave, again, lots of (legitimate) reasons why women don’t leave these situations.

I don’t think consent is that difficult or that nuanced a concept for men to grasp—if she is uncomfortable (which is frankly pretty obvious to read to any reasonably competent human), stop. Why is that so hard? And if there is any doubt, surely there is only one answer as to where the presumption should lie?

Was this sexual assault or clumsy seduction?

Ahalya: I was unpleasantly surprised on reading about this since I like Anzari’s ‘sweet’ persona and found his behavior to be a jarring contradiction. My reaction is that he was really inconsiderate, douche-bag-y, too aggressive and not remotely interested in her as a person.

However, I agree with Jia Jia that the context and interpretation here is a little different because this was a date set up consensually after some flirtatious banter, not a job interview or some other professional setting. I still completely empathize with Grace in many respects because it should have been obvious to him that she was not into it, uncomfortable, etc., and even after she said something explicit, he continued to be pretty aggressive.

But, having heard somewhat similar stories from other friends, I’m wondering how these situations could be avoided. I also think (probably unpopularly) that women could have more agency in these situations. To your point Sneha, I agree it is difficult to say no sometimes, especially in delicate situations like these where the setup was partially consensual. If it were me, I’d probably have behaved in a similar manner to Grace because I’m not as assertive and direct as I need to be sometimes…but I’m not sure that’s the best way to handle this situation. Sometimes, if someone is crossing a line you’re not comfortable with, I think you do have to say ‘no’ firmly. There really isn’t any other way, apart from finding someone who is more attuned to your desires from the start (that’s the ideal guy!!).

Jia Jia, to your point about the backlash, this reminds me of the Catherine Deneuve-led, anti “#MeToo” movement where they’re claiming that women should have more agency and control, and that we’re blurring the lines between true criminals (Weinstein) and douchey guys who misread signals (e.g. Ansari). I agree with that. I wouldn’t want this to become a witch hunt against every man who made an inconsiderate comment or went a bit too far without explicit consent. Clearly I wouldn’t want to date men in this latter category and don’t think they should get off the hook completely—but I also don’t think they should be lumped together with more serious offenders. I agree with Deneuve and others that a compliment or flirtatious comment or attempt at seduction isn’t necessarily assault (although can unfortunately turn into that).

There is an art of seduction, which many men suck at—but in many cases, perhaps they are making their own clumsy, inconsiderate attempt at that and I don’t think that’s a crime on the same level as rape/ assault/ harassment in the workplace/ other settings.

Zi: On that point of clumsy seduction, sometimes we forget that humans are also animals and there’s an inherent raw instinct for men to have sex with as many females as they can especially when they are single. In most of these stories, the guy is probably not analyzing the situation like the female is and just in hunting mode to get laid, i.e. thinking with his “other head.”

Was the article “justice” or “revenge porn”?

Jia Jia: Sneha’s points about relenting vs. consenting did make me think more about what Ansari put Grace through. I guess where I’m at is that for me, he was very self-serving and inconsiderate but not necessarily wrong, the way it would’ve been wrong if she had been his intern, or if he’d started doing these sexual things in a non-date context. I do think that many men need to find a medium between chivalry and groping and I also think that women, for our own safety, need to feel entitled to give very explicit refusals, if necessary.

Sanju: I felt like this article touched on your points Jia Jia:

“Aziz Ansari sounds like he was aggressive and selfish and obnoxious that night. Isn’t it heartbreaking and depressing that men—especially ones who present themselves publicly as feminists—so often act this way in private? Shouldn’t we try to change our broken sexual culture? And isn’t it enraging that women are socialized to be docile and accommodating and to put men’s desires before their own? Yes. Yes. Yes.

But the solution to these problems does not begin with women torching men for failing to understand their “nonverbal cues.” It is for women to be more verbal. It’s to say: “This is what turns me on.” It’s to say “I don’t want to do that.” And, yes, sometimes it means saying piss off.
The single most distressing thing to me about Grace’s story is that the only person with any agency in the story seems to be Aziz Ansari. Grace is merely acted upon.”

I also really liked the Margaret Atwood article the author links to, and this is the part that really captured my imagination:

“But understandable and temporary vigilante justice can morph into a culturally solidified lynch-mob habit, in which the available mode of justice is thrown out the window, and extralegal power structures are put into place and maintained. The Cosa Nostra, for instance, began as a resistance to political tyranny.

The #MeToo moment is a symptom of a broken legal system. All too frequently, women and other sexual-abuse complainants couldn’t get a fair hearing through institutions – including corporate structures – so they used a new tool: the internet. Stars fell from the skies. This has been very effective, and has been seen as a massive wake-up call. But what next? The legal system can be fixed, or our society could dispose of it. Institutions, corporations and workplaces can houseclean, or they can expect more stars to fall, and also a lot of asteroids.

If the legal system is bypassed because it is seen as ineffectual, what will take its place? Who will be the new power brokers? It won’t be the Bad Feminists like me. We are acceptable neither to Right nor to Left. In times of extremes, extremists win. Their ideology becomes a religion, anyone who doesn’t puppet their views is seen as an apostate, a heretic or a traitor, and moderates in the middle are annihilated. Fiction writers are particularly suspect because they write about human beings, and people are morally ambiguous. The aim of ideology is to eliminate ambiguity.”

We cannot continue purging bad men as a mob via the Internet because messy circumstances (like Ansari’s) distract and trivialize the basis of the initial movement. To me this questioning, is a hopeful sign of the mob becoming self aware, and perhaps retargeting energies toward fixing the systems that actually failed.

A friend pointed out to me that sexual harassment for her was more about changing men’s attitudes than the legal system. I object to this basically because there is no way we will be able to get true consensus among all humans for acceptable attitudes. The only successful form of consensus has been laws setting thresholds for what is acceptable behavior, and then attitudes are shifted towards that.

Tania: I thought Grace’s remark, “You guys are all the same, you guys are all the fucking same” was enlightening. It suggested to me that something similar had happened to her before. She was excited about this date and to her it seemed that “all the guy wanted was sex.”

From the outside it seems like yes, she could leave but she couldn’t (why?). A woman a few years older might just stand up and say, “This isn’t fun, I’m leaving.” In any case, Ansari was pressuring her and maybe he even thought she would like being wanted or pursued in some way—I don’t know. But spilling the gory details of this private event onto the pages of the internet feels like revenge.

Priyali: Sam Bee on point again about the backlash to #MeToo and I have to say I agree with what she said. Some of her choice words:

“A lot of people are worried about Aziz’s career—which no one is trying to end, because again, we know the difference between a rapist, a workplace harasser, and an Aziz Ansari. That doesn’t mean we have to be happy about any of them.”

“People like me had to wade through a sea of prehensile dicks to build the world we now enjoy, and part of enjoying that world is setting a higher standard for sex than just ‘not rape.’ And women get to talk about it if men don’t live up to those standards—especially if that man wrote a book about how to sex good. And if that seems harsh, I’m sorry. In fact, you know what? I’m sorry for a lot of things.”

“If you say you’re a feminist, then fuck like a feminist. And if you don’t want to do that, take off your fucking pin, because we are not your accessories.”

That said I still feel the girl should have left much before she actually did.

Is this a clash between generations of feminists?

Tania: People may have seen this interaction between Ashleigh Banfield and the Babe.net reporter. Banfield initially criticized Grace on her show. In response to this criticism and an invitation to chat on the air with Banfield, the Babe reporter Katie Way wrote a ridiculously rude email in which she attacked Banfield ad hominem.

“It’s an unequivocal no from me. The way your colleague Ashleigh (?), someone I’m certain no one under the age of 45 has ever heard of, by the way, ripped into my source directly was one of the lowest, most despicable things I’ve ever seen in my entire life. Shame on her. Shame on HLN. Ashleigh could have “talked” to me. She could have “talked” to my editor or my publication. But instead, she targeted a 23-year-old woman in one of the most vulnerable moments of her life, someone she’s never f—ing met before, for a little attention. I hope the ratings were worth it! I hope the ~500 RTs on the single news write-up made that burgundy lipstick bad highlights second-wave feminist has-been feel really relevant for a little while. She DISGUSTS me, and I hope when she has more distance from the moment she has enough of a conscience left to feel remotely ashamed — doubt it, but still. Must be nice to piggyback off of the fact that another woman was brave enough to speak up and add another dimension to the societal conversation about sexual assault. Grace wouldn’t know how that feels, because she struck out into this alone, because she’s the bravest person I’ve ever met. I would NEVER go on your network. I would never even watch your network. No woman my age would ever watch your network. I will remember this for the rest of my career — I’m 22 and so far, not too shabby! And I will laugh the day you fold. If you could let Ashleigh know I said this, and that she is no-holds-barred the reason, it’d be a real treat for me.
Thanks,
Katie”

In turn Ashleigh responded. It is troubling to see women attacking each other and treating each other like this. That said, this conversation between Megyn Kelly and Banfield was interesting…

Jia Jia: This tussle between Way and Banfield has added an interesting generational dynamic to the #MeToo movement and I think there needs to be serious reflection on what each generation can learn from the other. Ashleigh’s insistence that there’s a difference between bad date and sexual assault is important in a trial-by-social-media-culture where outrage is a volatile medium. At the same time, the conversation that Way’s article opens up around our crappy dating culture, is valuable (and Banfield acknowledges that in discussions with Kelly).

Banfield may have been harsh in her critique but Way’s personal invective is unacceptable. I wish there was a way for them to just sit down with each other privately, talk out their differences and show a united and stronger front as sisters in the same fight, than take punches at each other in the public arena. Because the public arena is always gladiatorial and I don’t think it helps in this moment for feminists to be taking each other down.

Tania: Well, the silver lining to this entire episode is that, regardless of which side of the debate you might fall on, the discussion’s not about what grace was wearing or whether or how much she had been drinking. That seems to be refreshing progress.